Making Money In Missing Middle Housing

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Canadian Real Estate Investor, where hosts Daniel Foch and Nick Hill navigate the market and provide the tools and insights to build your real estate portfolio. For investors looking to scale beyond single family homes, missing middle development offers a compelling strategy.

[00:00:21] We'll cover what it is and how smaller investors can add units to existing properties and why current financing programs and city bylaws make this an ideal time to start. We'll provide key data and facts to help you evaluate if this opportunity is for you. And towards the end of the episode, we will do an interview that I did with Chris Spoke, the founder of Missing Middle Summit.

[00:00:47] You can check that out at missingmiddlesummit.com as well as Ben Singer, who is an expert that we've had on the realist.ca community, who actually condominiumizes missing middle projects. Well, he condominiumizes big apartment buildings, large high-rise buildings as well, but he also has figured out a way to make this make sense at a small scale. So you'll hear of guys who are basically building these things and actually selling the four units, which isn't super common in Ontario at least. It's a lot more common in BC and other parts of Canada.

[00:01:17] But before we do that, let's do a little refresher on missing middle. What is missing middle housing? It refers to medium density buildings between single houses and mid-rise housing. Examples include duplexes, triplexes, fourplexes, townhomes, accessory units like laneway homes. These house scale buildings blend into single family neighborhoods so they don't get the NIMBYs too in a fuss while maintaining similar size and appearance while adding what is called gentle density. Ah, yes.

[00:01:46] If you put gentle in front of it, the NIMBYs will be less on their guard, I guess. So the term missing, where does that come from? Well, it refers to the 60 to almost 70 year gap in building these medium density homes here in North America, obviously Canada. And if you're living in a city here in Canada, you've probably walked past some of these and not even noticed.

[00:02:10] Zoning laws restricted most areas to single family homes, leaving us with only low density homes or high rise towers. Here in Toronto, you can see it very clearly if you are on the 20th story of a condo building and you look out and you see single family homes for essentially as far as the eye can see. Now cities are embracing these middle density options to create affordable, walkable neighborhoods, and that opens new opportunities for you.

[00:02:41] Investors. And these projects offer investors an efficient way to scale up rather than managing multiple single houses. You can generate multiple income streams from one property that triplex or a fourplex provides higher total rent than single units while reducing vacancy risk as well. Now markets with housing shortages that show strong demand are key to look for here.

[00:03:04] So for instance, Halifax, Halifax average rent rose 18% to almost $2,400 monthly. And by adding units like a basement apartment or triplex, you can serve a large market of renters seeking affordable family housing in established areas.

[00:03:22] And from a financial perspective, missing middle investments can offer better returns on equity than a standalone home adding rentable units that boost your properties, not only monthly income, but its overall value. Yeah. According to some experts, a house with a legal basement suite can actually increase the value by up to 30% because future buyers will pay a premium for that potential income. Yeah. I mean, it makes total sense.

[00:03:49] And that rental income that comes from an extra unit can also, of course, offset a large portion of your mortgage, right? We just did an episode about this, Dan, where we talked about house hacking. And this is essentially that if you're making the land serve two or three or even four tenants instead of one, well, guess what? Obviously you've two, three X your revenue and that dramatically improves your revenue per lot. That's a new one revenue per lot. I like that. That is a good metric.

[00:04:19] Scaling into smaller multiplexes also improves efficiency. It's easier and cheaper per unit to manage one fourplex than four separate houses. Maintenance utilities and taxes can be consolidated, but you know, the rents aren't significantly lower than the singles. Many investors find that multi-unit properties yield better cap rates and more stable cash flow as the risk of vacancy is lower. If one unit is empty, the others might still be generating income while you're finding a new tenant.

[00:04:45] All these factors make missing middle housing a compelling strategy for growth. Now, this is where it gets important. Cities are finally embracing the missing middle and that is through new zoning changes. So zoning rules now favor missing middle, which is very new for a lot of the developers and investors in this space.

[00:05:07] Cities across Canada have changed regulations to make building multiplexes, townhomes and accessory units easier than ever before. Major cities have updated their zoning to welcome this new gentle density, allowing for projects to proceed as of right without the lengthy approval process that bogged down so many of these projects for so long. Yeah. So let's just go through a couple of examples that really stood out to us. Edmonton, I think was really leading the charge.

[00:05:36] 2023 zoning reform allows three story multiplexes citywide by default. The new bylaw eliminates single family detached zoning restrictions, permitting row housing, basement suites, laneway homes and live work units in residential neighborhoods. Property owners can now convert single houses to triplexes or add backyard units without rezoning approval, opening opportunities for small scale developments. The next city we'll look at and highlight here is Toronto.

[00:06:01] Of course, in 2023, Toronto ended exclusionary zoning by allowing up to four units on all residential lots citywide. It was previously restricted to single family homes. These neighbors could can now have duplexes, triplexes, fourplexes and a garden suite. So not I don't mean separately. I mean, you can have a fourplex with a garden suite and that is going to design the neighborhood to not only preserve the character, but to allow more people to enjoy it.

[00:06:29] Now, this allows investors to convert single family homes into multiplexes without major rezoning. Ontario's bill 23 extended similar opportunities to smaller towns by allowing up to three units per lot across Ontario as well. Let's jump over to Halifax, Nova Scotia. They embraced missing middle development with council voting in late 2023 to allow up to four units per lot by right across all service residential areas.

[00:06:58] This eliminated single family only zones, allowing homeowners to build duplexes, triplexes or fourplexes without special permission. The change addresses Halifax's housing shortfall and opens opportunities for investors to add units in established neighborhoods with other Nova Scotia towns expected to follow suit. Okay.

[00:07:15] So from Nova Scotia all the way over back to the West Coast, my hometown, Vancouver, BC, which has approved sweeping zoning changes back in September of 2023 to allow for multiplexes on single family lots. Now, a standard lot can have up to four strata titled units or six units if some are rentals. This goes back to the rental versus the condominiumizing thing, which I'm sure we'll get into later in this episode here.

[00:07:43] While larger lots can now accommodate six strata or eight rental units. The city simplified zoning and processing creating opportunities for investors to develop fourplexes or stratify existing homes in the province of BC is also mandating missing middle zoning for all cities over a population of 5000 people. And that started last year in 2024, Dan. So you can see that coast to coast cities are embracing small scale multi-unit housing in traditional neighborhoods.

[00:08:13] This is an obvious trend. It's a trend that we told you that was going to happen two years ago. Major centers like Edmonton, Toronto, Halifax and Vancouver have updated their laws to encourage missing middle development. And it's not just them. This is a huge trend across Canada. This is reducing red tape and speeding up approvals. This opens up new opportunities for creative infill projects in previously restricted areas. Now, these zoning changes have created an ideal moment for property development.

[00:08:41] That small cap developer, that citizen developer. Yes, you. Well, these bylaws vary and should be verified no matter where you are. Because again, this is, you know, it's not like one change has swept the country. Obviously, there are different changes for cities and municipalities. But the overall trend favors missing middle construction. That's the important thing. Offering early adopters a chance to gain an advantage. So without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

[00:09:11] We brought in some experts as well as the founders of the Missing Middle Summit, which I urge you to go check out. Dan, I think you and I will both be there and we'll be surrounded by a bunch of friendly industry experts and faces who will be speaking and getting involved in this growing and ever evolving operation.

[00:09:58] Okay. Chris, and then Ben. And then what is the Missing Middle Summit? Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for having me on. So my name is Chris Spoke. I'm a partner in a development firm here in Toronto called Toronto Standard. We build... Our focus is primarily on mid-rise rental development. And then as you mentioned, in addition to that, or as a kind of like side of desk thing, host the annual Missing Middle Summit. This is our third year.

[00:10:25] We're hosting it on May 21st in Toronto. And it is just kind of an opportunity for either current missing middle housing developers or aspiring missing middle developers or the people in their orbits that contribute to their projects. So think about architects, lenders, planners, consultants, trades, and so on. It's kind of like a gathering point for all of these people. We really track policy change that has made this scale of development more possible and even feasible in Toronto.

[00:10:51] And we're trying to create a space for this emergent industry to hang out, trade notes, share knowledge, and that sort of thing. Amazing. And Ben? Hi, I'm Ben Singer. I'm a real estate lawyer with Shanata Ruggiero of Spencer and Melbourne. We help real estate investors, developers of all sizes with the projects. And we've really been focusing in on that missing middle segment over the last few years because it's essentially what works within the boundaries of the GTA.

[00:11:17] So I've been honored to be speaking and helping out with the summit for the last couple of years. And I generally contribute expertise in condominium development on the smaller scale because a lot of the advantages that you see in a large condo development you don't necessarily see on the small scale. And scaling down is a bit of a difficult task for a lot of people.

[00:11:39] So trying to help bridge the gap and be one of those professionals Chris mentioned because, again, on the smaller scale, a lot of the shops don't necessarily have a lot of in-house expertise. So bringing people together at the summit helps the smaller developers replicate that sense of scale and those abilities that might be missing in-house.

[00:12:00] Yeah, for sure. I think as a professional in the space, I feel like there is no gap that I have in my end-to-end model that I need to deliver to clients, which is help them acquire and then successfully develop and exit a missing middle site. There's no gap that I can't fill at this event. And it's been that way for three years running now. And I really applaud you for the work that you've done in that regard.

[00:12:26] Let's talk about the education side a little bit about like, you know, you mentioned covering like the other piece of what I just mentioned is I like to go to this thing to learn as much as I can and get those updates that I can properly advise clients or properly make decisions on my own investments and developments. What has changed? Because a lot has changed. What has changed since last year's missing middle summit event, not just in Toronto, but maybe nationally as well? Yeah, I mean, a few things.

[00:12:54] I'll even start by saying that when we first hosted our first event in 2023, and you mentioned that you were very helpful in kind of getting the word out and letting people know that this was happening. And Ben, of course, has been a big help from the start. The event took place one week after Toronto passed its multiplex bylaw. So the timing almost couldn't have been better. This is the kind of the first time that you were allowed to build up to three stories, up to four units on any residential lot in Toronto.

[00:13:19] You know, and as far as as far as I'm concerned, there were some kind of like missing middle ish things before then, like lane laneway suite and garden suite permissions. But the multiplex bylaw was the first real important policy change to unlock this scale of development. And then last year in 2024, the day of the event, in fact, the major streets policy, which would allow for six story apartment buildings on Toronto's major streets, was in the planning and housing committee or council. One of the two. And there was a vote.

[00:13:44] And we had council Brad Bradford, who's a big champion for housing reform and council, come to the event, give a little bit of talk. And he had to run back to city hall to vote on it. This year, you know, we've still got three weeks until the event itself. We're trying to see if there's anything that's going to be timed as well. I think probably not. There are a few important things that are happening right after the event. But since last year, we've had the major streets policy itself be approved in council. It is now under appeal by the OLT.

[00:14:13] So it's not yet fully enacted citywide, but there is a hearing scheduled for November. And we're tracking that very closely. Developers are able to scope themselves out of the appeal and proceed with the scale of development. But we're keeping an eye on that. The multiplex bylaw, which I mentioned, was a three story, four unit permission citywide. We now have a pilot project in Toronto for six units within the same kind of built form, but six units being piloted in Ward 23, which is in Scarborough.

[00:14:38] So and we're expecting that by the end of the year, six story permissions will be citywide. In parallel, community planning, city planning is also doing consultation around the idea of increasing the height permission from three to four stories. So it's possible that by this time next year or maybe even before, then we have from three unit from from three stories, four units. We go to four story, six units, which is unlocks kind of more more sites for development. And we're seeing similar trends across the country.

[00:15:06] Right. In cities, cities across the country, we're seeing more of this multiplex scale development be permitted as of right by city councils. We're starting to see some improvement to building codes to allow for this scale development. So specifically, I'm thinking of B.C., where you could now build up to six stories with a single means of egress, which is sounds technical, but it really just allows for more efficient floor play and unit layouts within this kind of scale of construction. And of course, we're hoping to see more. We've just had a federal election.

[00:15:34] We have a new liberal government, which somehow we're told is different from the old liberal government. We'll see if that's true. But this scale of development has at least rhetorically been a priority for Carney's team through his platform and through his campaign. So we'll see what's going to come from that. And then, again, our goal with the summit is to share the practical realities of developing this product, but also track the policy. So we're going to keep an eye on all of that.

[00:15:58] Yeah, I think one of the biggest things that's always updated at the Missing Middle Summit and that's of national importance is the CMHC MLI Select program. It seems like every four to six months they implement a change that blows up everybody's pro formas. So about a year ago, they flipped energy efficiency from 100 points towards the program. And I'll refer listeners back to your earlier podcast on the CMHC program to know what the points are that I'm talking about.

[00:16:27] And I think it was three or four months ago they changed how lot fabric and distribution of units across lot fabric affects your qualification. So at the summit, you'll be hearing from, I think, one or two speakers, maybe even a couple more specific to the CMHC qualification, giving sort of up to the day of the summit information. So what's true on May 21st? If you're getting recorded information, it may even be inaccurate by then.

[00:16:55] So you've got to come to the summit on May 21st to hear straight from the horse's mouth on what will actually qualify for CMHC, how to gear your applications towards that, and to meet the consultants that can help you on the energy efficiency, on the accessibility, and on the affordability fronts. Yeah, 100%. I think they also changed the cash requirement on construction facility as well, where you have to have, I think, up to 25% equity in the project now.

[00:17:22] Yeah, we're seeing more of these rental achievement holdbacks where you're not getting your full 90%, 95% loan to cost. We are seeing some lenders provide kind of secondary loans or loans in second position. So we do have, as we have had over the last two years on the MLI Select side, Max Goizman from Peak Hill Capital will be, as Ben mentioned, kind of like speaking to the latest and greatest on what's happening. Awesome. Yeah, Max is great.

[00:17:47] I think we've had him as an expert speaker on the show and in the realist.ca community. Yeah. Can we maybe just chat a little bit on like making the case for missing middle in the current economy? I know we hear every month that goes by another record low sales number for pre-construction.

[00:18:10] And it feels like that being the way the housing gets built in the GTA is obviously going to cause some potentially long-term problems and maybe a bit of a supply gap if we can't figure out a way to backfill it. And then, you know, at the same time, it seems like some other places, Alberta being a really good example, seems to be, you know, supplying the market exceptionally well with this format. What do you make of middle's role in the housing economy in Canada right now?

[00:18:41] I'll start with Chris and we'll go to Ben. Yeah, I think, I mean, the first thing it does is I think it makes real estate development more accessible to a much broader kind of group of people where you don't need to have the same kind of debt and equity relationships that you do for high-rise or even mid-rise construction. The dollar amounts are just lower and therefore, I think, more approachable. So we are seeing a lot of new type, like a new type, a new persona almost of developer enter the market.

[00:19:06] People who are either not developers at all, not in construction at all, just coming from other industries, seeing the opportunity, understanding it and wanting to get involved. Or people that were kind of like on the general contracting or construction side, now taking a look at what their clients have been doing and thinking that the policy has gotten predictable enough for them to dip their hand in as developers. So I think that's the first thing.

[00:19:29] The other thing that's interesting about missing middle development or middle development, you know, we've had this very bifurcated market, certainly in Toronto. And this is true of most major cities where it's either kind of existing, stable, single-story, two-story, detached or semi-detached houses. Or, you know, in some pockets, high-rise and mid-rise construction, typically kind of poured in place concrete, a very expensive way to build with below-grade parking and so on.

[00:19:53] In Toronto, we're seeing people build these projects, three, four-story walk-ups, 275 to 300 bucks per square foot. But it's a much lower cost of construction. If you're building four units, you're exempted from development charges. So there are all these ways in which your pro forma just works better. The metrics work better. You don't get the same scale as larger forms of construction, but a lot of people are just taking on more projects and kind of scaling up across sites rather than, you know, on one site.

[00:20:18] I don't think the policy has gotten far enough for this to kind of totally replace the need for much higher densities. But we're certainly moving in the right direction. And we're with the summit and just with this kind of community and industry trying to push policy as much as we can. Awesome. Yeah. I mean, to Chris's point, I don't think we're ever going to replace the need for large towers. There's going to be demand for proximity to sort of these high-value amenities all the time.

[00:20:45] You know, the downtown core, young people who work in banking, who work in finance, who work in other industries that are really concentrated there, they're going to want a convenient commute to work, whether it's the walk outside right into the office or just right to the subway. But there are other amenities to think about. There are schools and parks and libraries that families want access to. And I think the way to build out what families actually want isn't necessarily to go high up into the sky.

[00:21:12] It's to look at the whole yellow belt, whether it's in Toronto or I don't know if they use the term elsewhere. I know yellow belt was because the zoning for a single family was designated yellow in the Toronto plan. But the equivalent, to look at those areas and to do gentle intensification there where you wouldn't necessarily want to put a 70-story tower right next to a park. But it's absolutely appropriate to put four or six or eight units on a lot right next to a park.

[00:21:40] And instead of one family having access to that park, now seven additional families can. So building out in this way, it's not just about, you know, oh, towers aren't working. What can we build instead? It's really about, I think, opening up our eyes to this is a different product for a different audience. We've been serving, I think, a sort of either a young professional or an ultra retiree audience with the towers very well. And it's going to continue.

[00:22:07] But this product for young families, I think, is exactly what we need to address a lot of the structural issues with our city. With either the overcrowded or under crowded schools that either need people or we need to take pressure off of some of the schools. You know, we have beautiful, beautiful parks that people want free and easy access to. To be near the daycare, to be near like other family style amenities.

[00:22:35] This sort of build, I think, really speaks to the need that families have in Toronto. And to keeping families in Toronto, because that's who drives, I think, our community and our economy. And if you listen to Mike Moffitt's show, he loves to talk about the drive until you qualify effect. Well, I think you shouldn't have to drive more than a few blocks away from the school to be able to find a home that you can call your own. Totally.

[00:23:02] I think one of the things that, I mean, Chris, I think you were alluding to this a little bit as well. Like there's a cost differential with $2.75 a foot to, you know, like your creation costs on concrete high rises, like, I don't know, $600, $700 a foot, right? But the other piece is the response time, right? Like the agility.

[00:23:23] And I think that, you know, one of the big issues like that's created the volatility that we're seeing in the market right now is that you said how all these projects that were contemplated in like 2019, 2020, pre-sold in 2021 with like record low rates, a bunch of buyers who were jacked up on like their houses being worth so much money, pull a HELOC out, you know, lever up, buy five pre-cons. And now five, six years later, the market's a completely different story. And so you have like this massive exposure to market risk.

[00:23:53] We didn't see that take place in ground-based housing, right? Like your subdivisions or like low rise because they could literally just sell a house and then build it right away, sell a house and then build it right away. So it was a much more responsive to changes in the market. And I think that that like middle kind of captures that agility as well, where you have, you know, if you can be doing like a, if you can be building a fourplex, you can kind of, you're not at risk of like some of the fears that I see in Western Canada.

[00:24:23] Right now where there's maybe potentially overbuilding, even in Ontario, like I think a lot of this, like this new purpose-built rental resurrection, I think East Coast, something like 6% of their rental supply is currently under construction. And so I think that middle also can be a lot less violent in its impact on the market up or down.

[00:24:44] Well, I guess all of that, I'll roll that into a question for you, Ben, which is, you know, I mentioned like condos, pre-con condos being like kind of at the core of this issue with the high rise space. Does it seem like there's like a demand for like for this to actually become a role player in that condo market?

[00:25:05] Like, and, and, and do you think that this is something that could end up being, you know, like, I think you got all these pre-con agents that were making like, you know, millions of dollars a year, three years ago, sitting around like this is the greatest sales force in the history of the world. Potentially. I feel like we got to put, give them something to market. Do you think that there's, that there's a role that middle could play there? I absolutely do. If you're looking at, again, the sort of product that a family would want and need, there are two problems that the tower condos specifically had.

[00:25:32] One was the base price, the price per square foot, plus your soft costs, plus developer profit wound up at a point where downtown Toronto or anywhere in Toronto, it was impossible to sell for less than a thousand square foot. You couldn't get financing if you didn't sell for a thousand square foot. No family, let's assume needs 1200 square feet. That's means that the base price is $1.2 million. Now, how many families can afford a home of $1.2 million?

[00:26:02] Not so many. Layer on, towers having amenities, having a lot of infrastructure, your condo fees are going to be significant in virtually any tower. You know, minimum I've seen is about 50 cents a square foot, and that's for the most stripped down amenities you can imagine. So already we're in a difficult space for families. Bringing it down to the scale of the missing middle really means that the product that people can get on a per square foot basis, you're getting a lot more value.

[00:26:32] You're getting it for potentially a much better price. And it also has some sort of knock-on benefits from just the physical orientation of, you know, instead of having to wait for an elevator for a few minutes to take your kid to the park, you just walk outside and take your kid to the park. It's just a much better type of housing specifically for families. So to the pre-con side, when we're looking at a product that can be delivered roughly a year from sales, maybe 13 months, maybe even 11 if you're really efficient.

[00:27:01] You're talking about something where a family can make the decision that I want to live next to the school, next to this park, next to this library. This is the right site. So sell me on it. I'll put down a deposit today. And in a year, I'll have my new home. And it will be a multifamily home. And yes, there will be some condo fees, significantly less than a tower. But it's something where you can lock into a neighborhood that you wouldn't necessarily otherwise be able to afford. So I think there's a lot of potential there.

[00:27:30] And I think if the sort of pre-con sales force puts their head to it, figuring out how to make those sales efficient would be a real boon to the development community. Because right now, I think that the sales model where there's a sales office for a tower with 300 units works well when there's 300 units to amortize those costs over. When you've got four units to sell, figuring out sort of the sales techniques, I think it's a bit beyond this humble country lure.

[00:27:57] But like you said, there's a sales force out there that knows what they're doing. So I put my faith in them. Yeah. Any thoughts on that, Chris? No. I mean, we build primarily rental. But I do think that there's a ton of opportunity for condo because people want to own their homes. And to Ben's point, there's a lot to like about owning a ground-oriented unit that is still multi-unit. So it's still affordable in a neighborhood that won't be flooded with inventory, let's say, over the short term.

[00:28:23] The key, of course, is you have this major, this large sales force that has been selling pre-construction condos for a long time. And we almost like, I think we just need to scale up the developer side to kind of like match that sales force. And that's a big part of what we're trying to do. And I think that's a big part of what the policies are trying to do is kind of like draw people into the scale of development. Because, you know, four units at a time, it's just not a ton of inventory unless you have a lot of people building these things.

[00:28:47] And even the really prolific multiplex builders, they might have 10, 12 sites going on at one time. But that's still like a small mid-rise project, you know, in aggregate. So I do think that the sales force is kind of like overdeveloped relative to the development side of the table. And we just need more developers. We need more people getting creative, buying sites and putting them to work. Yeah, it's like pretty accessible type of development too, right? Totally.

[00:29:14] Can you walk me through like what a fourplex or a major streets might look like for somebody who either, I mean, I know, you know, probably to me, the best candidate is a lot of these legacy landowners in the city of Toronto. You know, the land functionally cost has cost them nothing. They've owned it for so long and it's paid for itself so many times over and over. Like if somebody is like that, or even if they just bought a piece of land, what are they doing and what's going to cost them by the time they're done? Yeah, so it used to be that developers were builders.

[00:29:44] And then over the last like 30 years, developers started becoming municipal lawyers or planners or having to come from that world just because the approvals process got so drawn out and complex and opaque. The good thing that's happening on the missing middle scale is we're getting more predictability in the policy. So when you talk about fourplexes, you can get fourplexes built as of right. And what that means is there's no rezoning required. You can go to the committee of adjustments if you got minor variances to kind of like push the envelope a little bit on the as of right permissions.

[00:30:11] But you can, if you want to, go straight to building permits. There's no site plan control. You're going straight to building permits. So, you know, one cost, of course, is the land itself. But if you're an existing landowner who wants to redevelop their property, then that's not something you need to consider. We just are wrapping up construction on a six-unit, four-story building, five residential units, one commercial. Our total architecture fees were like 20 grand. And total soft costs, design costs altogether were like 35 grand.

[00:30:39] Because we were taking advantage of the development charge exemption, we didn't have to pay any development charges. No parkland cash in lieu payment. No community benefit charges. It was really just that, those design costs and then the application costs for the permit itself. And then we went into construction. And some people, again, are entering this industry with that experience. But if they don't have that experience, there is this growing cohort of general contractors that are getting really good at building these things.

[00:31:03] And I mentioned that the costs that we're seeing are, let's call it 275 to 300 bucks per square foot, depending on the level and quality of your finishes. But if you multiply that by whatever square footage you have in mind, that plus 30, 35, 50 on the high end and soft costs is your all-in project budget. So to Chris's point about those general contractors, there are thousands of redevelopments of single lots in the city that are being turned into larger single family homes.

[00:31:32] And it's wonderful, don't get me wrong. But those same contractors are certainly capable of building a multiplex. The building code is not that different. We're talking about part nine construction for virtually every four-unit project. So the requirements are really just about demising the units properly, installing a few extra bathrooms and a few extra kitchens. And I'm obviously oversimplifying.

[00:31:57] So take that for what it's worth, but also take that if you come to the Missing Middle Summit, you'll hear from some of the contractors, some of the builders who really have applied that. They were building single family. Now they're building multiplex. These are the main changes. This is what they've learned through the process. So I think that's a huge part of the market of potential users of the bylaws across whether it's Toronto or the country. It's not just legacy landowners, but legacy builders who are looking for something different to do.

[00:32:28] And maybe something that has a bit more yield for them as well. Because again, if you have one buyer of a single family home versus four buyers, four renters of four units, it's just more people involved. You're adding more value to more people and there's more potential revenue. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's the first time I've ever heard a lawyer oversimplify anything anyways. So congrats on that one. But I think that's right.

[00:32:52] I talk to a lot of people who work either in the trades or as general contractors, and there's always this hesitation to take the additional leap of becoming a developer. And I think it is worth stating that there's this mantra of you could just do things. You really can just develop a multiplex. The policies have simplified. There is a lot of knowledge sharing within the industry. There are all these kind of group chats that exist now where people are trading notes on challenges that they're facing and how they're overcoming them. I do think it is more accessible than maybe people who haven't been in development might imagine.

[00:33:23] Yeah. And I don't think that that... I will say the one thing that's fascinated me the most about this whole missing middle world is the community that's formed. It's like me meeting folks like you two and the summit and it's across the country. And there's so many good people. And I think a lot of it is it's people who are motivated to solve this problem. And now that we are presented with the real opportunity.

[00:33:49] Like everyone in middle was saying before high rise collapse, they were saying, this is it. This is like what is going to solve the housing crisis. And now all of a sudden we're actually presented with the opportunity to do it. And everybody is really, really making a meaningful effort to step up and do it. Like that's the community has really come together to keep trying to deliver housing where the market has made it very difficult to do that. I guess the last piece here, give me the pitch on your event. I don't need to be sold on it. I love going. I'm going to be there.

[00:34:18] I'm trying to convince you guys to let me speak at the event. So, but yeah, so give me the pitch on the event for anybody who's listening. And where can they find more information on it if they want to come? Yeah. I mean, the first thing is, yeah, we'll definitely have to get you on stage. Yeah. I'm just going to like do this. Bring the energy. Yeah. You know, like where Kanye West like steals the mic. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to do that when Ben's speaking. So you don't even have to invite me. Well, that's what we want.

[00:34:46] I'm trying to think of like how Ben and I actually have been talking about this, how to add spectacle to the event. So I'm trying to think of ways to make it even more, more fun. But, you know, the high level pitch is that we think through the full life cycle of one of these projects from identifying sites, underwriting them, understanding the planning, retaining an architect and a consultant team, working with them on designs, finding a general contractor, talking to your lender about construction financing, getting through construction all the way out to either term financing or working with someone like Ben on condimization.

[00:35:15] And kind of like the day, if you stay there all day, you go from like one end of this cycle to the other. And we do very punchy 15 minute talks. So this isn't like a typical conference where it's, you know, three people in a moderator speaking for an hour and we get to like fit four of those in the day. We have a lot of content being covered and it's not to like the maximum depth where you're getting all the information, but you're getting a really high level, good high level understanding. And maybe more importantly, you're starting to learn who the experts are across these categories or domains.

[00:35:44] And then you find them in the crowd and in the crowd itself, we have a much broader array of consultants and experts that touch on different phases of the project. So, you know, the event is really about learning from the people speaking on stage, but it's maybe even more about just meeting and connecting with the people in the crowd. So for that reason, we also try to make sure there's enough time for that. We focus primarily on Toronto, but there are a lot of people that come from the broader 905, GTA, even Hamilton, because a lot of this is transferable.

[00:36:11] The specific municipal rules are different, of course, but a lot of cities are moving in the same direction. So, you know, the main thing I would say is that if you're either in this space and you'd want to broaden your network and kind of learn a little bit more as these policies and rules keep changing, it's a great event. If you've been thinking of dipping your toe into this industry, it's a great way to like within eight hours, get a very good high level overview of the whole thing.

[00:36:34] Or if you're someone on any of this kind of vendor side that is working on different types of projects with different types of clients and you want to explore a new segment, it's a good place to meet a lot of people in one room. I think even for experienced builders, experienced developers who sort of know what they're doing, coming out to meet the people who are interested in the space or work in the space to help build out new teams, I think is a crucial thing that the Missing Middle Summit brings forward.

[00:37:02] So I don't know that we actually mentioned when or where. I think it's an important factor. I'll have a link in the show notes anyway, but yeah, that would be helpful. So yeah, I will say so the missingmiddlesummit.com. Chris got a great website for that. It's May 21st at the Toronto Reference Library. So it's right in the middle, Yonge and Bloor. And yeah, tickets are available now. And yeah, anyone who is interested in the space really should be coming out. You'll either learn how to do it yourself.

[00:37:30] You'll meet the team that's going to help you take your project from start to finish. And yeah, you can talk to me and Chris and Dan if he jumps on stage. We'll invite you on stage, I think. I don't think you have to force your way on. Yeah. You're charming. If I have to, I will. But the one thing that you mentioned, Chris and Ben, is the people there. And to kind of go back to that community piece, I attend a lot of these things.

[00:37:59] It's just kind of part of what we do for the podcast and being kind of the people that we are on a coast-to-coast basis. And you get all different types of intention. I'm not really one of those kind of woo-woo intention people. But I noticed in this room that there are people who are serious about building connections to do business with one another. In the first year after I had spoken, I had two people from the audience come and hunt me down.

[00:38:28] And we have worked together since then. They're my clients. And one of them has been on the show. And so this is a very unique room in such that there is really a high intention group. I actually remember, I think you had to change the venue, actually. Because people were basically just doing deals at the back. Just having conversations at the back. So I think that that speaks volumes about what this event is actually about.

[00:38:55] And the connections that are made have been profound, not just for me in my career. But I think for hundreds and hundreds of people who are attending this thing. So I really applaud the work that you've done in that regard. I haven't tracked this fully. But the number of people who have either attended or spoken or one or the other. Or who've gotten work from this, gotten clients from this, found consultants, found contractors. It's very high. And to your point, you don't get this from every conference. Because there is a conference circuit. And we run into each other at a lot of conferences.

[00:39:22] I do think that this one is kind of like a high bias to action sort of conference. And not only is that good as an investment of your time and money to show up to the conference. But it's also just kind of like a cool group of people to connect with. It's people who are doing things in the real world. And those are always interesting people. I mean, I'm in that boat of having picked up clients from the conference. And it really is that mentality of the people who are coming really believe you can just do things. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Amazing. I'll leave it at that.

[00:39:51] That's a good way to end it. Thank you guys so much for your time. Really appreciate it. Looking forward to seeing you at the event and anybody listening. I better see you there as well. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having us. We'll see you there. Thanks, Dan. Tell Nick we say hi. The content of this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not intended as financial, legal, or investment advice. Always consult a qualified professional for advice tailored to your unique circumstances.

[00:40:15] The views expressed are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of affiliated organizations. Daniel Foch is a real estate broker licensed with Valerie Real Estate Inc. Website is Valerie.ca, V-A-L-E-R-Y.ca. And a member of the Canadian Real Estate Association, the Ontario Real Estate Association, and the Toronto Real Estate Board. Nick Hill is a mortgage agent and partner at OWL.

[00:40:43] Mortgage license number 10317. Agent license M21004037. Comm Nedeni,urgent yourself. Yes, fair to me. Ukrainian怕 closely 601, Michael Cardinal g safari. samen great. Thank you.