Is Your Home An Investment ? with Jessica Moorhouse

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Canadian Real Estate Investor, where hosts Daniel Foch and Nick Hill navigate the market and provide the tools and insights to build your real estate portfolio. Welcome back to another episode of the Canadian Real Estate Investor podcast. This is Nick Hill and you have as always Daniel Foch, but it's not just the two of us today. We are joined by, I don't even know where to start here.

[00:00:25] Like, huge podcast sensation, recent published author, speaker, been on TV. Jessica Morehouse, what can you not do? I don't know. I mean, actually a lot. The list of what I can't do is a lot, you know. Okay, well that's a different podcast. You know, where do you want to start? Let's start with what you can do because you can do a lot of things very well. Why don't you tell us and tell our audience here a little bit about yourself.

[00:00:53] Obviously our audience are podcast listeners. You've got a podcast for over 4 million downloads. So tell us about the podcast, the book, what you've been up to. Yeah. So yeah, I have the More Money Podcast, which I started back in 2015. So this is the year of the 10 year anniversary. Wow. Congratulations. Yeah. It's like, that's exciting. But I'm like, what happened over 10 years?

[00:01:13] How am I still doing this 10 years later? You asked me starting a podcast on kind of a whim on top of my day job in marketing that I'd still be doing that, that I would have been like, no way. But honestly, it's been the biggest blessing in my life. It's been the so rewarding being able to talk to amazing people like you because you were on my podcast and ask them all of my questions.

[00:01:37] So that's one element. I've got a YouTube channel now. So that's more kind of instructional how to kind of stuff. You know, I'm on social media trying to give you a little bite sized pieces of things, do public speaking. And of course, the most exciting thing that I've been working on the past two years is finally coming up with my first book called Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers Between You and Financial Freedom, which is a bit of a departure kind of from the typical content I create, which is more, you know, how do we improve your financial life?

[00:02:04] This is more, well, yes, this is how to improve your financial life, but going a little bit deeper, a little bit more personal introspection. Let's talk about the behaviors and psychology of money and trauma and societal injustice and all these things that could be external or internal that are holding you back from maybe getting to the financial place that you want to be when it's not just a matter of dollars and cents.

[00:02:30] Yeah, I love it. Sorry, Dan, I just want to go all the way back and rewind to that pivotal moment in your life 10 years ago. You know, we obviously, this podcast has changed our lives. We get asked numerous, numerous times a week, if not monthly, you know, should I start a podcast for people in the real estate space? What prompted you? Like how and why did you start a podcast? Because 10 years ago, it was like, it must have been like you and Joe Rogan doing it. And that was it, right?

[00:02:59] He was around. Yeah, it's still such a different podcast back then, too. I bet. So tell us about that first little bit, because I think one of the things that we're going to get more into real estate and financials and everything. But I think one of the things that a lot of people struggle with is, is just that consistency, right? I mean, Dan and I are three and three and a bit years into this. We had one before.

[00:03:22] But let's say we're three years into you or 10 years in. How did you get to that first six months, that first two years and have the vigor to keep going? And if you really want to go back, I actually started out as a blogger in 2011. So I knew this was better than the game. Oh, man. When I talk to like younger people who just have like a TikTok and like, oh, man, I sound ancient when I'm like, I used to be a blogger. I used to write stuff down and people would read it.

[00:03:51] Like, oh, gosh. Yeah. It's been an evolution for sure. Just to see, you know, where I started and, you know, things that used to exist and don't. Remember Periscope? I don't think anyone. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:30] I was full in until, honestly, I graduated in 2009 and it was impossible to find any kind of work. And I had a student loan to pay. I honestly just did not realize the reality of being an adult. And, you know, all right, there you go. You've got to do it all on your own. And so that kind of freaked me out. And I honestly quickly realized the film industry is not where I want to be. It's not the industry for me.

[00:04:54] And so I pivoted, started working sales and marketing for a couple newspapers, which don't really exist. Actually, they don't exist anymore. The one I worked for for three years, which was such a wonderful job. I went bankrupt during COVID. So sad. And during that time, though, I want to educate myself about finance because I didn't have any money and I was broke and I wanted to figure out how do I live on this really tiny salary?

[00:05:18] And I was actually working two jobs at the time. And so I stumbled upon personal finance blogs, real people talking about real money who are my age earning similar incomes and how they were budgeting. And I'm like, this is so helpful. This is so amazing. And then on top of it, reading all the typical financial books, wealthy barber, all that kind of stuff. And I was just hooked. I thought it was so fascinating. And then also there was an opportunity for a creative outlet of, oh, I can start writing again because I really missed having that purpose, that kind of reason to create.

[00:05:47] And so I did that on top of my day job, I guess from 2011 to 2017, when I finally quit my full-time job and then made this my permanent gig. And I'm still doing it eight years later, which is really exciting. But to answer your earlier question, should someone, if they have the idea of starting a podcast, should they do it? Absolutely. Because I had that thought in 2015, I thought I was linked to the party because I know most people like, oh, no, that was the early days of podcasting.

[00:06:16] It wasn't. There were earlier days when it was literally like a live journal recording people would have. They just go for a walk and then record themselves and put it on their podcast. This is back in like the mid-1940s or something, right? The mid-1940s. And so what actually inspired me to actually start a podcast was, did you ever listen to Serial, that podcast about the murder? Yeah. That changed everything because I'd never really listened to podcasts before that. And even though my podcast is nothing like that at all,

[00:06:45] it was so cool how invested I was and how other people were invested. I'm like, hmm, interesting. And so I started looking at other podcasts that exist and see what kind of format I wanted to do. I knew more US-based podcasts in the personal finance space. There really weren't a ton. I'd say there was three of them in Canada that I don't think exist anymore. And so I'm like, well, why not me? Why not? What's the worst that could happen?

[00:07:10] And also very lucky my husband is a sound engineer. So he was able to hook me up with all the equipment. And this is how you record something because otherwise I would not know how to record anything. And so thank God for him. And also he did the majority of my editing for like four or five years for free. What a good guy. I know he just would not. I told him like, I will pay you. He's like, it's a weird tip. So please don't do that. I hire someone now. But yeah, so it was a decision I made that I'm like, should I do this?

[00:07:40] I'm like, what's the worst that can happen if it sucks and I'll turn it off. I'll end it. But I kept on getting there's just always someone interesting to talk to. And even though it's a lot of work, you know how a lot of work a podcast can be. It's so rewarding being able to talk to interesting people, especially people that you would not normally have access to. And I'd say, honestly, looking at some of the earlier, I've just been like doing some updates of some of my podcasts shown as I moved over to a different network.

[00:08:08] And it's interesting. Some of the guests that I have for the first few years are like, oh, those were just all the people I knew. And then there's a shift on, ooh, this person's actually pretty notable. This is an author. And now, I mean, some of the people get on my podcast and like, if I didn't have this podcast, I'd never be able to talk to them. Yeah, for sure. I think that that's one of the, like, it opens so many doors. That's probably one of the things that I enjoy most about. I mean, we've been fortunate enough to meet some amazing people through this.

[00:08:36] And I can only imagine with a platform that's as established as yours, how many cool folks that you've been meeting through it. You mentioned in your intro, you know, the psychology of money and, you know, the way that I guess the people think about their own personal finances. And I think one of the biggest things around that in Canada and very much in the Western world, and when we frame it around the housing crisis that's going on right now, is homeownership.

[00:09:05] And the way that people think about homeownership. What are your thoughts on homeownership and the big question of renting versus buying and whether or not your home is an investment? So, yeah, that made me think of a couple of things. So I'll answer your initial question, and then I'll kind of link it back to some of the topics I talk about in my book about how we need to learn to let go of some of the lessons we learned as kids. Because I think that's the, maybe I'll start there. Yeah, that's good. It's fascinating.

[00:09:31] A lot of us have these preconceived notions about whether renting versus owning one is better than the other, based off of what we were taught, maybe directly or indirectly from our caregivers. And so a lot of us were probably taught renting is throwing your money away. I definitely learned that kind of from my parents. They were always into homeownership. They rented when we were really young, then as soon as they could afford something, they bought, and they've always been homeowners. And same with my in-laws.

[00:09:57] They're about like 10 years older than my parents, and they're very much homeownership, homeownership, homeownership. Renting is a bad thing. And that's from their perspective, their lived experience for whatever reason. Renting at the time was more risky or more expensive. But that's one of the things that I had to let go of, especially in my 20s. I rented throughout my 20s. I didn't buy my first home until 30. And I held a lot of shame for that because of this idea I grew up with that renting is bad, and it's throwing your money away.

[00:10:26] You're paying someone else's mortgage. But that was literally the only way I could afford to live in downtown Vancouver, to live in downtown Toronto, was to rent. And it gave me a lot of flexibility. If I'd bought in Vancouver, like everyone said, oh, you know, as soon as you can afford, buy whatever you can in Vancouver, I'd be stuck there or would have had to sell at a loss.

[00:10:46] And I wouldn't have had the flexibility of packing up everything that we owned, driving across the country, starting a new life in Toronto, which was the best decision we could have ever made for ourselves personally and professionally. And so I had to let go of this idea, even though now I'm a homeowner and I love it. I don't think it's the be all end all. I don't think it's the right decision for everybody. Most of my friends rent. And that's because it is very expensive, but also it gives them a lot of freedom. And they can invest their money differently.

[00:11:15] I think that's the other component that maybe our older generations, they couldn't connect with is homeownership was the only way they knew how to invest. It was tangible. It was understandable. Generations of their family, that is how they were able to build that generational wealth. And maybe they got burned by like the Great Depression. And so they're scared off by the stock market or they kept on buying at the worst times in the market. And so they're like, no, this isn't for me.

[00:11:39] But for us, now that this information on how to invest in different ways and different asset classes is so much more accessible, like the most accessible it's ever been. Now you can learn how to do whatever you want to do. You don't just have to stick with what you know. You can learn the things that you don't know. And so for me, although I really love being a homeowner, I know it's I wouldn't really call this home an investment because it's very expensive to carry. And, you know, I it's there's there's drawbacks. There's good and bad things.

[00:12:08] We just had to replace our boiler. That was expensive, you know, and I think we're getting to the point where like, oh, and then we have to probably look at the AC and have to get the fence, you know, redone next summer. And so it was a lot simpler and easier being a renter. So I do miss that in some capacity. But there's other things I really like being, you know, I like I like our home and we wouldn't be able to live in this particular home if we rented because it wasn't for rent. It was for sale. Yeah, I love that.

[00:12:35] I think I think you're so right that the like homeownership and success and money have just been so tied together, so correlated. Right. But I think that that correlation is finally is finally being kind of kind of broken. Right. So I guess, Jessica, like on that note, great, because you said something that in some circles could be controversial. Right. My home is not an investment.

[00:12:59] I think that's something that a lot of Canadians kind of fight back and forth, maybe internally with. Right. Like, OK, we just spent six hundred, nine hundred, one point five million dollars on this place. Is it, you know, am I ever going to see that money again or am I just, you know, here and this is in this is my place? Well, you know, an investment really should be making you every making you money every month. And maybe your house is appreciated. I hope it is. But investment should be making every month.

[00:13:26] Well, it sounds like you've just been spending money every month on your home, which happens. Right. And again, I, you know, I rent. But guess what? In the last literally two weeks, I've had to replace a sink, a toilet. I'm going to have to replace a full small section of roof. And those are all on properties that I don't live in, but I own. So I totally hear what you're saying.

[00:13:47] If if people have, you know, now that that kind of old adage of, you know, real estate and ownership equals success, owning the primary residence equals six. Now that that's kind of getting broken, what would you say to, you know, that 20 to 30 year old that has maybe a bit of extra cash? You know, is it should they should it be real estate? Should it be stocks? Should it be starting a business like, you know, you've spoken to hundreds of financial experts over the years.

[00:14:17] What are some of the takeaways that you would be able to tell that 20 to 30 year old in today's, you know, kind of complicated investing world? I say especially for that age bracket, because so much can change in your 20s and 30s. You can get a job opportunity that takes you across the world. You don't want to be locked down. And that's actually why I'm glad we never bought anything in our 20s, because I was actually really afraid. My husband talks all the time. Oh, wouldn't it be great if we moved to L.A. because the music scene.

[00:14:47] And so I'm always even like owning this property. I'm like, we're living here for 10 years, just so you know. And then after 10 years, we will talk about L.A. again. Hopefully he won't anymore. But yeah, I think for me, I wouldn't unless you know this is the place I want to live. And again, a lot of my husband's friends, especially they knew they loved where they grew up and they wanted to stay there and they want to have a particular job.

[00:15:13] And so it actually made sense for them to, you know, as soon as they could, a lot of them worked in trades and they were making really good money right away. They, you know, bought their first home and they've seen a lot of success. But I think it's because it was different for them. They knew this is where they wanted to be. They had no plans on moving. But if you're just not sure where you're going to land, you want to have options. And so for me, doing stock market investing, when I say that I'm a passive investor, so I like keeping it simple, low cost, low fee, very boring investing in index funds.

[00:15:43] And that's probably where I'd probably point people to, to learn more about that, to see if that's a good fit for them. Because it just, you know, you can invest for a few years and then hopefully that money will grow. And then if you change your mind, you're like, I want to buy a home now or I want to buy real estate. You have the option of selling those stocks or ETFs and then using the cash for whatever the heck you want. A home is a lot harder to liquidate.

[00:16:07] I mean, there's even homes in my neighborhood where you could tell that they were bought, they were renovated. They've been on the market for a long time. So it's not easy to move compared to like you can sell your stock and get your cash tomorrow. So you got to think about some of these things. For sure. I think that's that liquidity factor that is like the main differentiator between real estate and almost just about everything else, right? I mean, even like a gold bar, you can probably move faster than a poorly renovated house, right?

[00:16:36] And I think we've seen a lot of that where there is inventory sitting. People came in, you know, I don't want to call it greedy, but there was an element of that, right? Did a real quick, you know, in real estate, we call them the handyman special. And that goes all the way up to multi-million dollar homes that can be, you know, as soon as you get a magnifying glass, you can just be like, wow, this, this, this, these are all wrong. And those homes are going to sit. And there's a lot of money tied up and stuff like that, right?

[00:17:00] I mean, you know, the home alone is worth, let's say a million dollars plus the amount of capital that you have just on a monthly basis to hold something like that, as well as the renovation and everything that you put into it. So I completely agree. I think the liquidity piece is the, is the main, the main difference between, you know, being able to be, I mean, there are ways in and around that a little bit through refinances or through, you know, other, other channels.

[00:17:28] But you'll never beat the ability to just click a button on your wealth, simple account or your, you know, your, your online trading account, whatever it may be. And, and, and be able to sell that, that house kind of thing. Do you think that's, do you think that's going to change? There are, cause I mean, there are like prop tech companies that are coming out with like fractional ownership of, of this kind of stuff. What's your perspective on, on any of that? Have you come across that? I'm very pessimistic on all that kind of stuff, but that's again, my own investor profile.

[00:17:58] Everyone has, and you probably go through the same thing when it comes to real estate investing. Everyone has an investor profile. So what's your risk tolerance? What are your goals? What are your needs? What makes you feel comfortable, uncomfortable? All these kinds of factors that play into what you should and should not invest in for me, because although I actually have a pretty high tolerance for risk when it comes to investing in the market, the stock market, that's largely because I I'm very well versed in it now compared to where I was in my twenties, where I was more conservative because I didn't have the education.

[00:18:28] I didn't have the literacy. But when it comes to like real estate, I I'm a homeowner, but I am not a real estate investor. It's always been an area I'm fascinated by. But whenever I get too close, I'm like, I, this just does not, it's still, I don't think it's for me. I think that's so interesting, but I don't think I would be good at it. And I think there's some people like you and I have a lot of friends too, where they're really good at it. They love it. They love doing the research, all that kind of stuff. I'm like, I, it's not for me. So that's just like, it doesn't jive with my investment.

[00:18:55] So when it comes to like things like, well, but what if we can, you know, do partial, partial shares or partial ownership into these things? And for me, I'm, I'm just always very like, let's just wait and see. I don't like anything new. Like I am the worst. I'm not, I don't know what the opposite of an early adopter is, but that is what I am. And so I like to wait and see anything.

[00:19:16] Part of it is just from my life experience too, seeing so many fintechs start, you know, back as early as like 2011 and then poof, they're gone. And so I'm like, I want to wait and see, even with like, well, simple, you mentioned. So they've now been around for a while. A lot of people are like, oh yeah, they're, you know, they're totally stable and fine. They weren't always because at first they were the first robo advisor in Canada. A lot of people were suspicious, like, well, we'll wait and see. And even for me, I'm like, we will wait and see. This is the, this is new. I don't know. What have you classed it?

[00:19:45] And then they've continued to expand and grow. So yeah, for me, anything that's like that, I'm like, let's give it five years and see if you're still around. And then maybe I'll, you know, think it's less speculative than it is. But I don't know. I'm so curious what your perspective is on some of these, these new fintechs with real estate. Is it, is it more risky than just doing your own research, buying your own property or buying a property with other investors that you know? Yeah.

[00:20:11] I think, I don't know if more or less risky is, is the, I guess it depends on like, if I'm throwing 50 bucks to own, you know, 0.01 square foot of, of this building kind of thing, whatever. That's not the actual way it works, but bad joke. But if I'm throwing 50 bucks at it, okay, whatever. I think it really comes down to me.

[00:20:30] It's like that provides a channel for people that may not otherwise be able to get into real estate or have the, have the capital, have the knowledge, have any of that kind of stuff to, to, to get in. And it provides them that little bit of diversity where they're maybe like, you know, I want to, some exposure to, to this kind of stuff. Now, I don't know why they just wouldn't invest in a REIT or, or. I was just going to say, I'm like, but what about REIT? Exactly. Those have been around for a while. And that's why I'm like, I'm comfortable with REITs because they've been around for a while.

[00:20:59] There's a lot more information about them, but some of these FinTechs, and I say this because there's been a few that have entered my inbox. I'm like, absolutely not. I'm not working. Oh yeah. I'm not working with you because I can't tell my audience that, yeah, good to go. No. Good to go. And then I've got to go into hiding two days, two years later. I've built a legacy. I've been around for a while. I don't want to get canceled for working with you. Yeah. Yeah. No, a hundred percent.

[00:21:22] I mean, I, again, for me, I don't personally invest in, we've had, we've had some great conversations with some people that do that. I think for some people, again, people are real estate curious. And I think that the real estate industry overall, real estate construction, real estate transactions, everything, even the mortgage space. It's all, it's all very slow moving. Right. I mean, like very, very slow moving.

[00:21:48] I mean, so I think that they're just with the, the, where society is now, I think that there's a lot of disruptors trying to come in and be like, Hey, this space is ripe for it. And I think there's been a bit of pushback from the space. Dan's a bit more involved in, in that whole side of, of, of the business, kind of the more prop tech side of things actually works at an AI real estate brokerage. So Dan, I'm interested to hear what you have to have to say about the kind of fractional ownership and, and tech and real estate and whatnot.

[00:22:16] I just think that the, the benefit is not as pronounced as it is in the U S like in the U S they have this thing called the jobs act, which stands for a jumpstart or business startups. And that was basically a crowd that it's crowdfunding. And in Canada, we don't really have a good crowdfunding environment. And so there really hasn't been a compelling, like, you know, if you want to crowdfund a deal, the people can only invest like $5,000. So now all of a sudden you have an investor relations nightmare. If you're doing it, if you're raising a million dollars, you have hundreds of investors.

[00:22:45] So it's, it's bad for the investor, but it's also bad for the, um, for the general partner, the operator who now has some regular accountability required to notify 5,000 investors of what's going on with the project. So I just don't think it's really, I think, I think regulators have basically eliminated it. I do a lot of that stuff in the U S I do like lots of LP investing, lots of crowdfunding, et cetera, and you, and U S real estate, but it's just the environment isn't as good here.

[00:23:13] You can do it as a, as an accredited investor, you can do it fine. But, but as like a retail investor, it's just not a, not a good space. I, in your intro, you also mentioned a couple of things that you said in your book and I wanted to talk a little bit about your book. Yeah, let's do it. Cause I'm, yeah, I just got a copy and I'm, I haven't really read it yet. So I want to learn. It's okay. I'll guide you through it. So you're going to read it to us. You're going to read it to us now, right? I'm going to start reading it right now. Do you have 12 hours? No, actually I think I looked the other day. I'm like, how long is my audio book?

[00:23:43] That makes sense. That's a solid audio book. So I listened to a lot of audio books and like, usually I find that like, I'm starting to get to the point. I listened to so many that I'm like, oh, this is expensive. And then I'll like kind of calculate like what I'm paying per hour. Oh man. Like it took me like five or six full days of talking. Wow. Man. It was so much fun though. It was one of the most fun things that I got to do in terms of the book, but yeah, going into the book.

[00:24:07] So like I kind of mentioned, it really is about not the, it's, if you're looking for a book about how to budget, how to invest, how to invest in real estate, this is not the book for you. There's some other great books I'm sure we can all recommend. This is about understanding your relationship with money, which sounds kind of woo woo. And I am the least woo woo person in the world. I do not believe in anything. I'm very suspicious of everything.

[00:24:28] And so this was really coming from the perspective of someone who's largely had her walls up and doesn't like to cry or be emotional. And it's just like, you know, because of my trauma in life experience, I wrote a book for people. I'm like, now let's open up and talk about your feelings. And I think part of the reason was because I really needed that because I was definitely stuck in my personal life, my professional life, my financial life.

[00:24:55] I really was, it's funny, it's, I didn't know I needed to write this book, but I absolutely needed to write it for myself, but also for the reader so we can all better understand our connection to money and how to improve it. So, but I didn't realize before I started writing and then quickly realized was I had a very toxic and unhealthy relationship with money. I didn't realize that it made me feel bad. It made me feel shameful. It made me feel not good enough. I just, you know, nothing was, you know, I was never satisfied or never fulfilled.

[00:25:24] And that's not where we want to be with our money. We want to feel good because money, money should just be a component of our lives or like a character, even maybe helpful, nice, happy character that can help us with, you know, exploring, you know, what are things that we'd like to achieve or do or what makes me happy? And how could money maybe be a mechanism to help me get there? Such as like money can help you pay for travel and travel makes you really happy when you learn about different people, eat different foods, get to see different things.

[00:25:51] But I always felt that money was this kind of big burden and it was holding me back in so many different ways that I didn't realize. And so everyone comes from somewhere. Everyone has a particular relationship with money now that started really young in childhood. And we all learned a bunch of lessons directly, indirectly and had, you know, certain things happen to us that have all come together to formulate our money story.

[00:26:20] So the narrative we've crafted that tells us who we are in relation to money. And there's very few people in the world, they do exist that have a really good, healthy relationship with money. But most of us, you know, it's complicated. We have a really complicated relationship with money.

[00:26:37] And the only way to really get over that is to kind of break things down, let things go, add some new things, keep some things that are working, rebuild and write a completely new money story so you can move forward feeling good. Because money should not be the thing that is holding you back. But it really does hold most of us back. And I'm not saying if I had more money, then I wouldn't be held back. That's another issue. It's just how you feel about money.

[00:27:06] And is it dictating you? Like for me, for most of my adult life, I wanted success in my career and money and all that kind of stuff together. Because I was trying to fill an internal void of, well, I got hurt a lot as a kid, you know, having friends that didn't treat me so nice. And so I felt unheard, unseen. So I wanted attention and I wanted people to like me. And I thought maybe people would like me. We could heal those emotional wounds from the past if I got success and money.

[00:27:33] And what I realized is no matter how much money or success I got in my career, I was never, I never felt good. It never, it lasted a minute. And then I'm like, now what? And then I just, so that wasn't the solution. Money I thought was the solution, but it wasn't. I need to find out how can I heal those wounds outside of money? And then once they're healed, can then I can heal my relationship with money. Yeah. Wow. That was great. Thank you for being vulnerable and saying all that. You know, it's. Oh, I get really vulnerable in the book.

[00:28:03] So I'm happy to share. Yeah. No, it's great to hear. You know, it's funny because money plays such obviously a pivotal role in everyone's lives. No brainer. But money plays such a pivotal role in the life of a real estate investor. And Jessica story, you know what? I got to bring it back to real estate here. Yeah. So, you know. Well, yeah. It's like, what an interesting question to ask a lot of your audiences. What brought you into this world of real estate investing? Like what really brought you here? You know, was it, I need the sense of security.

[00:28:32] I want to be able to be that one person in my family to create generational wealth because no one was able to fulfill that. And so, you know, everyone has a reason that isn't, oh, I just want to make a profit and like have an investment. Some people, but some, usually it goes deeper. It's like, but what really brought you here? 100% it goes deeper. You know, we, in a lot of the consulting calls that I'll do, I'll hop on with usually younger

[00:28:58] men and, you know, the ambitions will be out of this world, right? I want hundreds, thousands of doors. I want to be making X number of money. And I'm always like, okay, great. Now let's, you know, harness that back in and let's reel that back in. Yeah, exactly. And try to understand, you know, why, right? So, and you know, it's funny because real estate, money plays two major parts. One, I want to make a lot of it, but two, how do I get it?

[00:29:26] How do I get that first little bit to get started? And people get weird about it, right? They, you know, I don't want to ask anyone for money. I don't know how to make more of it. I don't understand it. And it's the one thing that really, I say there's two main things to hold real estate investors back. It's from getting started, right? Would be real estate investors. It's analysis paralysis. And we can talk about that later. And then it's money, right? How do I find it? How do I make it? How do I make them? Like, how do I take what I've done and make it more profitable?

[00:29:53] So, how should we be looking at money? Put your, you know, your real estate cap on, if you will. And how would you advise these, you know, a real estate investor to look at money? I'd say we want to make sure that when we're making any kind of financial decision, whether it's, should I, you know, buy this home as an investment? Or should I invest in the stock market? Or should I pay off all my credit card debt and then start investing or whatever?

[00:30:23] Whatever decision you have to make, you want to make sure that the driver isn't money. And what I mean by that is, it shouldn't, it should always be, you've got to have a very clear purpose on like, but what do you actually want to achieve? Because if you think money is going to solve your problem, money is going to bring you happiness, more money will make you feel better about yourself or whatever, heal all of your wounds. You're going to be so disappointed. You're going to own thousands of homes and have a lot of money in the bank and feel miserable still.

[00:30:53] And you're like, oh, okay, well, that's not good. I want you to own thousands of homes and have a lot of money and feel good about it. Because then when you feel good about it, not only can you, you know, savor all of the hard work that you've done and the things that you achieved, but hopefully you'll also be in a space of, okay, finding your own, what I call financial fulfillment, your enough point. So you can feel actually satisfied instead of just continuing to run, run, run, run, run.

[00:31:18] But also see how can I now use the power and influence and financial security to help my community, to help my family, to help my friends, to how can I use? Money as a way to continue to flow. There's a part of my book where I think a lot of people don't realize that the term currency comes from, I'm going to get this wrong, but I think it's a Latin term. Yeah. Curreri. I always get that wrong. Which means, you know, current, like it's supposed to flow. It's not supposed to, you're not supposed to hoard it. You're not supposed to just keep it for yourself.

[00:31:48] It's really meant to go in and out. And, you know, when we're, you know, helping small businesses and giving them our business, that money's flowing from our pocket, from our income to this small business, who is then likely helping other small businesses. And then we see it in our communities. Money should flow. And so when you have a good, healthy relationship with money, you want that money to flow. You want to build wealth, not just so you can have millions in the bank and then sit on it until you die. And then someone inherits it.

[00:32:16] But you want it to flow in a way that you're satisfying your needs, but then you're also doing some really amazing good in the world. Like maybe the big goal for you is I want to be someone who owns a lot of properties because I want to be a damn good landlord. I want to create, you know, these affordable homes that we're all lacking in this community. And I, you know, I want to get rid of this stereotype of the bad landlord who will kick you out and renovate you and all this kind of, I want to be able to create.

[00:32:45] All of these homes to create safe spaces for all these amazing renters like that. So really understanding what is your need or your goal outside of the dollars and cents, the money part. I think that you need to have that really important driver. Completely agree. You know, I think we're talking about the same thing when that's, that's your why, right? Like, why are you doing this? I love it. And I also got to commend you for, for dropping Latin.

[00:33:10] It's been an ongoing joke for, for years here that, that Dan, one of us will say something in Latin and the other one will have to translate it. So I appreciate you jumping in and doing the Latin. One, one thing for me, Jessica, and then, and I'll, I'll let Dan jump in with his next question here is you're, I love that concept of your enough point, right? Can you, can you elaborate on that a little bit? Cause I think that's something that, you know, in real estate investing and, and, and just

[00:33:36] in general business, whether it's, you know, growing a social media following or selling whatever widget you're doing or, you know, bringing in that next customer. I think in, you know, and a lot of people that probably listen to both of our shows are either entrepreneurs or small business owners, or at the very least interested in, in that lifestyle. Right. And I think there's kind of like an entrepreneur's curse where it's never enough, right? Like, like, like, like, okay, I had 20,000 followers out there. This guy's doing better. She's way bigger. She's making more money.

[00:34:05] I'm not as good as him. Like, so, so how do we, how do we find that enough point? And how does, you know, how is five properties better than 50, better than 500 kind of thing? Right. I know. Well, yeah, you, I think, especially when we're talking about the, the real estate is, well, how many properties do you want to own? Are you picking a number based off someone else's number? Do you actually want to own a thousand properties? Cause that's a big business. That's your job. That's. That's a big scale.

[00:34:35] That's your life. And if that's something that brings you so much joy and you love it, then that should be, then that's your number. But if you're comparing yourself to someone and really maybe your, your comfort zone, your sweet spot is five. Then why are you trying to get to a thousand? So you need to really figure out what you want outside of everyone else, which is the most difficult thing to do in this age of social comparison on such another level. But I think I try to remind myself of is that a comparison is the thief of joy.

[00:35:04] You may be so comfortable and happy in your life and then go on social media or talk to a friend and hear about the neighbor. And you're like, Oh, did you hear about so-and-so they have X, Y, Z. And you're like, well, I don't have that. So I'm not good enough. And you're like, you don't even want that. That was never even your goal. So why are you even feeling bad about your achievements when you're comparing yourself to someone else's journey that you have nothing to do with? And so that is such an important element.

[00:35:30] We don't really pay enough attention to is figuring out what are my actual needs and really, you know, sticking to your guns to, to fulfill that. And don't try to fulfill someone else's needs because that's when you'll never be satisfied. And so for me, I used to do that, especially early in my like entrepreneurial journey is seeing all these amazing people. A lot of them started as bloggers like myself and, you know, would create these amazing businesses that were definitely different than mine. And so I don't know why I was comparing myself to them because I'm like, well,

[00:35:59] they're doing something different, but they're making so much money. And you're like, Oh, am I a loser for not making the same amount of money? Like we're doing different things. We're on different paths. And I was, that was never my initial goal, but then you compare yourself and that's how you feel. And so honestly, writing this book and really, you know, thinking about this hard, I need to really restructure and think about what do we want? What's our income enough number? What's our in the bank account enough number? What are some of the, you know, and still working towards building that wealth,

[00:36:28] but really being clear on why, like, I'm not just going to be like, I want $10 million. Why? Like, what am I going to do with that kind of money? I never want to live. Uh, my goal has never been to, you know, have like a luxurious life where I can be on yachts. Cause I don't really care. Like that's never been something that I care about. All I've ever wanted was time. That's what I'm buying. That's what I want wealth for. I want time so I can sleep in, so I can take vacations. So I can visit my family at the drop of the dime. Cause they all live on the West coast.

[00:36:58] That's what I want. And so I don't need a big pool of money in order to do that. I just need enough money, my own particular number to achieve that. Cause also too, if your goal is to get like $10 million, you got to realize you're going to have to do different things to get that number. Like I can't continue living the life or doing the business I'm currently doing to get, I have to do something different. So you're going to make some sacrifices. You're going to have to make some shifts. And do you want to do that? And for me, I took a look.

[00:37:25] I'm like, no, like my, I don't want to have a big business with a bunch of staff. I like being kind of a solo operator with a few contractors. I outsource some work to feel good about supporting other, you know, freelancers. And that's kind of it. I kind of, that's, that's makes me happy. Yeah. I love that. I got to say, sorry, Dan, one last thing. I got to say time, Jessica, that answer of, of time is the number one. Why that I hear from almost every single one of our students, every single one of our

[00:37:54] clients, Dan, from, from like the real estate investing perspective, right? Very few people are like, I'm buying a super yacht in five years. I'm like, well, you might need more than a duplex, but, uh, but you know, most people, again, and I think that's the best thing is people just want that, that, that it's a simple, it's simple, right? I just want time back on my side so I can control it. And I can go see the family, sleep in, go to the beach, take a bike ride or, or sit down and record a couple of podcasts, whatever it may be. So I, I love that.

[00:38:22] I also, I feel like this is the closest to a woo woo conversation with three people that are like so far from it. So I love it, but this is the real stuff. Like I'm so uncomfortable talking about my feelings. So I'm still kind of like, I can't believe I wrote that. No, no, it's, it's awesome. It's, it's great. Yeah. I think the, the coaching space kind of gets a bad rap for that as well. Like, cause you know, I remember seeing all of these quotes or like all of these videos just all about like limiting beliefs and stuff.

[00:38:50] And like, I don't, I don't mean to say that like people ought to have more limiting beliefs, but it's like, you know, I mean like a dose of realism could often help a lot of people from putting themselves in bad situations. I think where, you know, and I think a lot of like the people in the coaching space really capitalize on people thinking like with these, with these kind of like delusions of grandeur where they're like, yeah, you just got to spend another 10 K and we'll get you there. Cause now you just got to spend another 10 K and it's like, and so that's why I do think

[00:39:19] that like, it's nice to, to have, like, it's refreshing to have a conversation like this. And it seems to be a uniquely like Canadian creator thing where I think we're like real about it. Yeah. Well, I feel like in the U S it's kind of like, they just like, if you, if you didn't win, they just hold the mirror up and they're like, you know, it's your fault and you just pay me again, you know? And so that's kind of, you know, it's, it's pretty cutthroat. So, weren't we going to make, weren't we going to make shirts have limiting beliefs at one point?

[00:39:45] I mean, you need to have some boundaries, you know, boundaries are good. So where's the, yeah, the line between self-limiting belief and a boundary. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I think, uh, I mean, this has been an amazing conversation from my perspective and unfortunately I've been forced to examine my own, uh, emotional connection with money after the episode. So, uh, yeah, we're fortunately, I mean, it could be, it could be the beginning of something great for me, but, um, is there anything else that you want to leave our audience with? Like where can they, where can they find you? Obviously they, they like podcasts.

[00:40:15] So, um, where would they find your show? Where would they find your book, your book tour? I think you're on right now as well. So yeah, currently not sure when this is going to air, but, um, I think this Friday, I think we're going to have it out this Friday. Yeah. So it'll be a pretty quick turnaround for you. That's amazing. That's a quick turnaround. Yeah. Doing a book tour. Um, so far cities, uh, we just did one in Toronto, which was exciting. And then Victoria, Vancouver, BC, Calgary, Ottawa, and then hopefully some more cities after that in the spring.

[00:40:43] So, you know, you can find information about that at jessicamorehouse.com slash book. That's also where you can find information about my book, everything, but money. There's also, you know, some info if you, I have a bunch of like extras and videos, workbooks, audio, and stuff like that for anyone who buys the book and gives me a review. So you get this all for free. I built it for like people who pre-ordered and then people are like, how can I access those after the book was out? So you can look at that on that link. But yeah, the book is out, uh, everywhere.

[00:41:10] And I think it, you know, if you want something different and something that, you know, maybe you can't figure out why you aren't able to start investing in real estate or, you know, you, you feel, you know, held back some way and you know, it's not about the money. It's something else. This might be the thing to unlock why, uh, and help you unlock your why as well. But yeah, I've got, uh, the more money podcast. There's actually some episodes where I read some excerpts from the book and you're, you

[00:41:38] guys are going to be on there soon, which is really exciting. And yeah, it's a different podcast in that we, we talk about everything finance. Um, but really it's the reason it's called more money is not, I think lots of people are like, Oh, this is how to make more money. It's really about more than money. It's about how to do more, how to save more, how to invest more, but also how to think more about your money. So it's, it's kind of about everything. So yeah, check that out on all podcast. I always thought it was a play off your last name. I was like, that works. Well, it was trying to get away from that.

[00:42:06] I'm still like, Oh gosh, the old name. Uh, it's great. Okay. Jessica, one more questions, a three parter. I told you this was coming before you get out of here. Cause I, I know that, uh, you've, you've probably got some amazing answers for this after you're like 450 episodes of podcasts in over 10 years, money secrets. Can you give us three little tips? They don't have to be anything crazy. Cause I feel like I should be buying the latte after this conversation we've had. So it's not, don't buy the latte. Latte is going to be fine. There we go. Latte is not going to kill you.

[00:42:35] Three money secrets before you get out of here for, for the average. Canadian, whether you're 20 or 60, what should people be doing? So, so these are some of the best things that I ever learned that I tell everybody about. So number one, you need a spending plan or a budget. And that sounds super boring and lame, but guess what? They work. And all it is, is a outline of what you want to do with your money. If you don't have that plan, you don't have that strategy. Then how are you going to gauge whether you're doing okay or not? You need to have some sort of basis and foundation.

[00:43:04] So build that spending plan as I like to call it and really figure out where we're going to allocate your income for your savings goals and your expenses. And then use the pay yourself first method, save first, spend second. Number two, when it comes to investing, invest as soon as you can. And maybe real estate isn't like the initial investment because you're young and you're like, I don't have that kind of money. You can start investing in boring index funds with like a robo advisor or an asset allocation ETF for hardly any money. Just get started. That was one of the best things I ever was taught.

[00:43:34] And then also I'd say on the other, the last third thing, I guess, would be when it comes to any kind of financial product, really pay attention to the fees that you're paying. So bank fees, investment fees, we want to get those fees down as much as possible. So most people pay like 15 bucks a month for a checking account. You don't need to do that anymore. There are so many great credit unions or online banks that are free. Save. It's just like, that's an easy thing you can do right away to save hundreds of dollars now and then thousands of dollars over a lifetime.

[00:44:04] So pay attention to your fees, especially with the investment fees. I mean, for anyone who's in mutual funds paying 2%, don't do that. That's hundreds of thousands of dollars you're losing by just paying that fee. So those are the three things. Wow. And I'm sure there are dozens and dozens more, but we have run out of time today. Oh yeah, I could go on for another hour, but I won't do that to you. They're either going to pay you or subscribe to your podcast to get those. Or the book, I guess. But that involves paying you. Awesome. So go check out all of Jessica's stuff. We will put it in the show notes. And Jessica, absolute pleasure.

[00:44:33] I'm so happy that we finally met face-to-face at the Raptors game a couple weeks ago. And we got to hop on and do this. You are more than welcome back anytime. And again, make sure to go check out all the amazing things that she is doing. Thanks again, Jessica. Thanks for having me. The content of this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not intended as financial, legal, or investment advice. Always consult a qualified professional for advice tailored to your unique circumstances.

[00:45:01] The views expressed are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of affiliated organizations. Daniel Foch is a real estate broker licensed with Valerie Real Estate Inc. The website is Valerie.ca, V-A-L-E-R-Y.ca. And a member of the Canadian Real Estate Association, the Ontario Real Estate Association, and the Toronto Real Estate Board. Nick Hill is a mortgage agent and partner at OWL.

[00:45:28] Mortgage license number 10317. Agent license M21004037. Agent license M210037. parentheses LinkedIn.� Thank you.